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Separation Of Church & State

Started by Flint , Sep 14 2004 03:59 PM

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#1 Flint

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 03:59 PM

Here it is, folks. What are your views?

I believe all political actions and legal decisions should be made without any influence of religious beliefs. Religion must not be supported by the government, because, whether some of you like it or not, America is secular and it was founded on the basis of religious freedom.

The first ammendment states

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....


Note the bold text. Also, this ammendment mentions stuff about speech and assembly, but thats for a different topic. XP

Basically, as long as political actions (i.e. laws passed, court decisions, presidential candidate platforms) make NO mention of a particular belief or give any indication that they are biased, everthing is peachy.

Discuss. You know you want to.

#2 SteveT

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:25 PM

It is very important both to keep government free from religion and religion free from the government.

The Founding Fathers were wise.

#3 Alakhriveion

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 04:26 PM

Agreed. Religion has no role in government, and I don't think religion wants to have it's opinions regulated.

#4 Korhend

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 08:36 PM

Agreed, why need religion.
The government is my god.

#5 Oberon Storm

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:25 AM

You that clause in the Constitution that establishes that no elected official will have to pass any kind of religious test. Also that treaty with the Tripoli pirates back in 17 or 18 something that establishe the United States was in no way founded upon any religion. Old treaty yes, but it has not been contradicted by any treaty or law since.

#6 arunma

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:38 AM

Why are we assuming that the Constitution is perfect? Anyone want to take a look at the section on returning escaped slaves?

#7 Oberon Storm

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 09:04 AM

Anyone want to take a look at what was amended?

#8 Alakhriveion

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 09:36 AM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 15 2004, 08:38 AM
Why are we assuming that the Constitution is perfect?  Anyone want to take a look at the section on returning escaped slaves?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're not assuming the constitution is perfect, at least, I'm not. The fact is, though, a secular document is better than a religious one. Of course, the constitution doesn't fit, because it's one of the core texts of the religion of MONEY!

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:35 PM

Religon and politics just don't mix well.

#10 Korhend

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:56 PM

Exactly and not just for government, we've been over this before but, can anyone recall the church of england? However having a good moral basis in the governmental philosophy is different.

#11 arunma

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Chief Fire Storm@Sep 15 2004, 09:04 AM
Anyone want to take a look at what was amended?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone want to look at the fact that the amendment didn't really do anything until a hundred years after the fact?

#12 Oberon Storm

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 09:58 AM

It was still amended.

#13 Hero of Winds

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 11:45 AM

Plus, I mentioned before (on the old LA) why nothing on slavery could be added into the constitution at that time.

The Constitution isn't perfect, but neither is the Bible, Torah, etc. Anyways, I think it's virtually impossible for there to be a true seperation of Church and State. People are still going to be influenced by their own personal beliefs. But as long as a decision isn't a reflection of a belief system (i.e. an anti-Christian amendment, a pro-Christian amendment, etc), then I guess that's fine.

#14 Alakhriveion

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:20 PM

Right, people will be influenced, but laws should be made in a religious vacuum.

OK.

#15 arunma

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Hero of Winds@Sep 16 2004, 11:45 AM
The Constitution isn't perfect, but neither is the Bible, Torah, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why isn't the Bible perfect?

#16 SteveT

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:29 PM

Oh geez, shoudln't have said that, Hero

#17 arunma

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:30 PM

Yeah, now I'm going to be whining for soooooooo long!

#18 Alakhriveion

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:32 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 16 2004, 07:27 PM
Why isn't the Bible perfect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*slips drugs in arunma's drink*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:59 PM

I believe all political actions and legal decisions should be made without any influence of religious beliefs

.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....


I really hope I'm not the only one who sees a massive contradiction in those two quotes.

EDIT: By the way, the Bible is imperfect because it was written by humans from a human perspective.

#20 Oberon Storm

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 09:40 AM

Yeah you are. I don't see it.

#21 Alakhriveion

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 09:43 AM

[QUOTE]I really hope I'm not the only one who sees a massive contradiction in those two quotes.[QUOTE]
I'm aphr43d you are. Care to clarify?

#22 arunma

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 12:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Dirk Amoeba+Sep 16 2004, 07:59 PM-->
QUOTE(Dirk Amoeba @ Sep 16 2004, 07:59 PM)
EDIT: By the way, the Bible is imperfect because it was written by humans from a human perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/b][/quote]
Then is the church perfect? Is the Pope infallible (when he speaks as Vicar of Christ)?

#23 Alakhriveion

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 12:26 PM

Ooh... Next time!

#24 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 03:01 PM

::sigh::

Free Exercise, Free Exercise, Free Exercise. And for good measure, Free Exercise.

The constitution says all religions are acceptable, but for some reason we read this as "all religions are UNacceptable." If you claim that religion has no place in politics, that's a restriction frrom Free Exercise.

And arunma, OF COURSE the church is imperfect. It does not claim to be perfect. And the Pope is infallible under the certain conditions that the church says he ie. If the Pope says "I like pepsi better than coke," it won't be infallible, but there are times when he speaks infallibly.

#25 SteveT

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 03:17 PM

Got hates coke, eh? I knew it all along. Now we just have to get the Pope to say he doesn't like XBox...

#26 Ganondorf

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 03:48 PM

The Bible actually contradicts itself many times. The New Testament portrays God as being more caring and forgiving while the Old Testament God appears to be more vengeful and destructive. It's probably because the people that wrote the Old Testament were more brutal and as such their writing shows it. The apostles were more like hippies so they show God as being loving and caring.

#27 Doopliss

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 03:54 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 16 2004, 07:27 PM
Why isn't the Bible perfect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, from a Catholic point of view, it can't be perfect because only "God is perfect," now it has the word of God, but it was interpreted by men, plus the Bible was written by men, so actually it's a sin to believe the Bible to be perfect, and it never states to be perfect.

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 03:55 PM

That's basically true, Ganondorf. Although the texts are inspired by God, they arw written by humans, form their memories, their points of view, and their prejucices.

#29 arunma

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 04:16 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ganondorf+Sep 17 2004, 03:48 PM-->
QUOTE(Ganondorf @ Sep 17 2004, 03:48 PM)
The Bible actually contradicts itself many times. The New Testament portrays God as being more caring and forgiving while the Old Testament God appears to be more vengeful and destructive. It's probably because the people that wrote the Old Testament were more brutal and as such their writing shows it. The apostles were more like hippies so they show God as being loving and caring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/b][/quote]
Read it more carefully. Both Testaments portray God as caring, forgiving, vengeful, and destructive.

If you think God is nicer in the New Testament: do you want to know what happened to King Herod when he pissed God off? The key is that Jesus is lovey and fluffy. Sure, Jesus=God, but they're still not exactly the same thing (it's the whole "mystery of the Trinity" thing).

#30 Ganondorf

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 04:20 PM

I don't believe in a Trinity and I have read the bible. Especially for my religion essay for theology. Old Testament= violent, New Testament= anti-violence
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