My Timeline Theory

Where did you get the idea that OoT isn't the first in the timeline? Hasn't that already been confirmed by... everything?

There's nothing that means OoT must come first at all. If you look at the state of the portals to the Sacred Realm, it seems less likely that it comes first, as surely originally there wouldn't be a locking mechanism on it and later there would.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 20 2004, 12:11 AM
There's nothing that means OoT must come first at all. If you look at the state of the portals to the Sacred Realm, it seems less likely that it comes first, as surely originally there wouldn't be a locking mechanism on it and later there would.

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The reason why there's a "locking mechanism" to the Sacred Realm in OOT is due to earlier wars (i.e. Fierce Wars)...which threatened the Triforce. OOT is the 1st time Ganon threatened the Triforce. Also, according to your theory, after all that Ganon has done...why let him into the castle and trust him? They may not recognize him but I'm sure his name--and what it's usually associated with--would've rung a bell.

But this Ganon has grown up innocentlyish in the desert. There's nothing for them to link him with the older Ganon.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 20 2004, 01:15 PM
But this Ganon has grown up innocentlyish in the desert. There's nothing for them to link him with the older Ganon.

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'Tis possible

- Trust between the different races gradually begins to grow. Ganon visits the king of Hyrule, and Zelda is uneasy. OoT occurs.
- MM occurs between the child and adult portions of OoT.
- Time travel works thusly: Link's body never travels in time. Link's consciousness jumps to the future, than the past, etc. After MM Link's body has all its adult memories. He returns to Hyrule, and his consciousness jumps to after Zelda sends him back in time, whilst his body carries out the adult portion of OoT.
- The sages seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm, and close the Temple of Time portal.

I'm gonna adress you the same tway I adressed HoW in his post: Navi left after Link sealed Ganon...thus MM comes after very well after ALL the events of OOT.

What might have happen is this: Link defeats Ganon in the future...Zelda send him back because she realizes...Link is destined to defeat Ganon irregardless of time travel and feels guilty about Link losing his lost time...SHE even admits they should not have tampered with time:

"Thank you, Link.... Thanks to you,
Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again
reign in this world... for a time. All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule
was my doing... I was so young... I could not comprehend the consequences of
trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time
for me to make up for my mistakes... You must lay the Master Sword to rest and
close the Door of Time... However, by doing this, the road between times will
be closed..." Zelda extends her hand to Link and says: "Link, give the Ocarina
to me. As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it."

with this said--Link is sent back...Link remembers everything...now Navi leaves...Link knows his destiny and will live out his childhood...during a portion of this time...Link looks for Navi...and MM occurs...Link comes back...(not clear how long he spends in Termina)...perhaps he has further adventures as well...7 yrs have past...things happen acordingly and Link, just as he planned it sets out to defeat Ganon...cuz that is his destiny....so this time around not only does he fulfill his destiny...but also had a chance to live out his childhood.

Once again Navi left after ALL the events in OOT...the parts that I explained about Link living out his childhood is NOT OOT (cuz all that didn't happen in the game)...OOT is only what we saw in the game....Think of my explanation of what Link done after returning to the past...as the backstory to another game...or a game in itself.

We don't know if Link was looking for Navi in MM, for me that sounds a little like fan fiction. The game only talked about an invaluable friend, yes, Navi was friend of Link, but she wasn't his best friend, it was Saria, but for me it sounds more like he's looking for a new friend, which probably is Talt.

No, he was definitely looking for Navi. Hence the fairy noise immediately after the text about it.

And about Navi leaving, I don't see how it's different to my theory - from thier bodies point of view: Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave almost immediatley, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go back to temple, leave temple (repeated any number of times), go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple, leave temple, go to temple, leave temple, wake sages in between, defeat Ganon.
From their consciousness' point of view, though, this happens in a different order:

Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave temple in future, wake sages, go to temple, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go to temple, wake more sages, defeat Ganon, go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple in time for older consciousness to take body over, jump forward to after Zelda sends consciousness back.

Umm ... I think Link went to Termina straight after the ending of OOT. He would've then come back to repeat the proccess even without Navi.

Then again, maybe, he'll find Navi just after MM.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 21 2004, 12:31 AM
And about Navi leaving, I don't see how it's different to my theory - from thier bodies point of view: Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave almost immediatley, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go back to temple, leave temple (repeated any number of times), go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple, leave temple, go to temple, leave temple, wake sages in between, defeat Ganon.
From their consciousness' point of view, though, this happens in a different order:

Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave temple in future, wake sages, go to temple, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go to temple, wake more sages, defeat Ganon, go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple in time for older consciousness to take body over, jump forward to after Zelda sends consciousness back.

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Lets look at it from what we saw:

Link awakens in the future...he goes back and forth...he defeats/seals Ganon...he's sent back for the final time (Ganon is NOT sealed in the past) and Navi leaves...that's what we saw...that's the order...can't get anymore canon than that.

Also, that's the closest to Link's point of view that we can get. In the end it is indicated that he goes back for the FINAL time, and we all know that what happens in the future, does not undo the past...unless you've come from the future to change the past...so Ganon isn't automatically sealed in the past. Basically what I'm getting at is that, after the sealing in the future, that WE saw in OOT...is when Navi left. Of course since the future doesn't automatically undo things...Link will have to eventually defeat Ganon again (this time around there will not be any time traveling)..cuz it's his destiny....so it is safe to say that MM happened before the second (actually it's still 1st) time Link seals Ganon (of course we don't know if Navi is actually found to participate in this battle).

Originally posted by showsni
And about Navi leaving, I don't see how it's different to my theory - from thier bodies point of view: Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave almost immediatley, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go back to temple, leave temple (repeated any number of times), go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple, leave temple, go to temple, leave temple, wake sages in between, defeat Ganon.
From their consciousness' point of view, though, this happens in a different order:

Go to castle, get stones, go to temple, leave temple in future, wake sages, go to temple, get gauntlets, lens, etc. go to temple, wake more sages, defeat Ganon, go to Zelda in castle, live a while in Hyrule, go to Termina after Navi, come back, go to temple in time for older consciousness to take body over, jump forward to after Zelda sends consciousness back.

Yeah, that's the same as my OoT timeline theory. I drew a timeline on paint to illustrate it. The numbered points are the bits where Link goes to the Temple of Time.

Tri-Enforcer, I agree with you in all but one respect - the second time round from our point of view of the future is exactly the same as the original, as it is the original. Navi must return some time in the seven year gap to be present at the start of the future.

That's what I've been saying. After Link helps to seal Ganon in the futuer, Link returns for the final time in the past to live out his childhood. During this time MM occurs...and possibly other adventures...once seven yrs have surpassed...Link will be ready for his ulimate bout wth Ganon (cuz from what Link knows the future that he already beat Ganon in, will not happen and now things happen somewhat differently i.e. he doesn't use time travel this time around). Perhaps Navi is around this time to help Link once more in the sealing of Ganon.

Ah, yes, but I say that Link doesn't have his memories of the future, and so acts exactly as we see in the game. Those memories jump forward to after Zelda sends him back, and are replaced with the memories of Link just emerging from the Sacred Realm for the first time.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 21 2004, 03:36 PM
Ah, yes, but I say that Link doesn't have his memories of the future, and so acts exactly as we see in the game. Those memories jump forward to after Zelda sends him back, and are replaced with the memories of Link just emerging from the Sacred Realm for the first time.

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So are u saying...after Zelda sends Link back...he has no account of the future he came back from...when its time to take on Ganon...the memories suddenly comeback? But Link would end up doing the exact same thing over...and once more lose his childhood again...unless I misunderstood you.

No, I'll try to explain:

Once Zelda sends Link back, he keeps his adult memories right up until just before the future. Then those memories jump forward in time to after Zelda has sent him back. She never sends his body back at all, just his soul. Similarly, child Link's soul jumps forward from first going into the Temple of Time to that adult body.

Too many minitaure timeline-y things! Too many blue lines!

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 22 2004, 12:33 AM
No, I'll try to explain:

Once Zelda sends Link back, he keeps his adult memories right up until just before the future. Then those memories jump forward in time to after Zelda has sent him back. She never sends his body back at all, just his soul. Similarly, child Link's soul jumps forward from first going into the Temple of Time to that adult body.

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SUMMARY: Everyone, if you even care, we're just going over what Link might have done after Zelda sent him back at the end of OOT.

*for all the single timeliners I'll use the term "defunct alternate future" basically to adhere to your beliefs that the alternate future gets erased or ceases to exists* now my response to Showsni's above quote:

So are u saying, Link loses those memories just prior to his bout with Ganon...so now its as if this "grown" Link of this "functional" future never fought Ganon, in this fashion, before in the other future, cuz he doesn't have the memories of that defunct alternate future with him during this battle...?

*in this "2nd time around theory" does Link live out his childhood or does he sleep again?

So during this 2nd bout with Ganon (from our persective) Link fights on as if he never experienced the defunct alternate future...and now he is truly fighting Ganon with his own wit and skills and without the memories and skills of a Link that experienced an alternate future. Later those memories return to this grown Link after he seals Ganon. Then his soul gets sent back again by Zelda? So from our perspective this would not only be Link's 2nd time sealing Ganon...but also Zelda's second time sending his sould back...that sounds kinda "loopish"?

I'd go with this if you say...Link regained his childhood and doesn't sleep for seven yrs...remembers everything...but loses those memories when he fights Ganon....get those memories back after beating Ganon...buuuuut DOES NOT get sent back (soul nor body) by Zelda, cuz he has lived out his childhood and did not use time travel. Of course if you went by that...there would be no purpose of him losing those memories when he fights Ganon.

Well, not really... The second time around fight with Ganon is, to Link, the first time around. He never loses any memories, and he only experiences anything that happens once - but he experiences it in a different order to his body. The only thing that travels through time is his consciousness. No future is ever erased, and Lik only fights Ganon once - as we see in the game. Once Zelda sends him back to relive his child, only his soul goes back in time. His body stays in the future, and is inhabited immediately by Link's soul having just returned from Termina, with all his memories intact. This is hard to explain... But no time is ever erased, there aren't any multiple universes, and nothing ever happens differentlt at all in any "2nd times round," as the second time round is the first time round - there is only one time round.

Just curious, where did the idea that only Link's conciousness travels through time originate. As far as any timetraveling goes I've only seen instances of an entire person, body and all, traveling, the only difference here is that when he goes back he becomes a child, and when he goes forward he becomes and adult, true when this happens Link retains all of his memories and the only change is physical, which could lead to the assumption that only his mind travels, but then again, that just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. It seems more likely that when he goes forward he actually sleeps through it every time, and that when he goes back that time is actually reversed up to the point at which he pulls the sword from the pedastle.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 23 2004, 12:16 AM
But no time is ever erased, there aren't any multiple universes, and nothing ever happens differentlt at all in any "2nd times round," as the second time round is the first time round - there is only one time round.

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You must have me confused about "2nd time around". I clearly stated that the 2nd time around is from our perspective--the players...obviously it would really be Link's first time around from his perspective.

So tell me...from Link's perspective, as far as you can think, tell me what do you think Link does when he is sent back to the past. Cuz if he's gonna live out his childhood and not sleep for seven yrs...he WILL have to do things differently. So there will be slight variation to the new future..but of course the end result will always be the sealing of Ganon.

I have Link's mind travelling through time rather than his body, as having an actual body travelling through time would be practically impossible and take a lot more energy. Besides, it removes the chance of any paradoxes, as nothing actually needs to travel through time in reality. No matter then needs to travel through time at all.

From Link's perspective: Zelda sends him back in time to after the last time he went back in time. He goes to see Zelda at the castle, who has returned now that Ganon has left Hyrule castle town. He goes away to Termina shortly, then later returns to Hyrule with Navi. He goes to the temple of time (by now 7 years have passed whilst he sould experience them), just in time for his past soul to inhabit his body and his present soul to jump forward to after Zelda sends him back.

I have no problem with Link's soul or mind going back to the past....never did.... I think that helps to rule out any BS about Link doubles or copies running around everywhere!

He goes to the temple of time (by now 7 years have passed whilst he sould experience them), just in time for his past soul to inhabit his body and his present soul to jump forward to after Zelda sends him back.

You're losing me here.... So, Link has lived out those 7yrs and has his memories from his stint in the other future...but now his "past soul" inhabits his body? Why...for what...what the use if he lived out his childhood this time around (from our perspective)? I thought this time around we're finished with anything timetraveling, period. And why does Zelda send whatever back this time around (from our perspective) he lived out his childhood, so why send his soul back? That would be a loop wouldn't it?

From Link's perspective, his soul has come back from the future...he has his memories of that future his soul came from...lives out his 7yrs...seals Ganon...now there is no need to send his soul or memories or whatever back....the purpose of Zelda sending him back before was just so that he live out his childhood, and not sleep for 7yrs...this time around (from our perspective/Links) now, there is no purpose for any aspect of him to be sent back. He keeps his memories of the future that he slept his way into....and also the memories of this future inwhich he didn't have to sleep his way through.

From the perspective of a simple Hyrulean...Link defeated Ganon only once...and doesn't recall him using time travel (unless Link tells them the story). From our perspective and Link's perspective he beat Ganon twice.... It is safe to say that Link believes that the other other future doesn't exist anymore (he knows it happened...but did it continue on? He maybe believes not), due to his actions once he returned to the past. So yeah it is Link's 1st time around...from the perspective a simple Hyrulean.

This is hard to explain... The Link with the childhood memories doesn't seal Ganon. He's already done that. His soul leaves his body before he even starts the adult part of OoT, and is replaced with his child soul which hasn't got the the seven year's memories. This child soul seals Ganon, and is sent back by Zelda. After it is sent back, the body is reinhabited by the adult soul.

Originally posted by Showsni@Sep 23 2004, 01:34 PM
This is hard to explain... The Link with the childhood memories doesn't seal Ganon. He's already done that. His soul leaves his body before he even starts the adult part of OoT, and is replaced with his child soul which hasn't got the the seven year's memories. This child soul seals Ganon, and is sent back by Zelda. After it is sent back, the body is reinhabited by the adult soul.

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Man, I am through! I understand you, but this is getting no where! I have my point and you have yours...all that matters is that we at least understand each other

Originally posted by BlackHawkA100@Sep 23 2004, 09:43 AM
Just curious, where did the idea that only Link's conciousness travels through time originate.  As far as any timetraveling goes I've only seen instances of an entire person, body and all, traveling, the only difference here is that when he goes back he becomes a child, and when he goes forward he becomes and adult, true when this happens Link retains all of his memories and the only change is physical, which could lead to the assumption that only his mind travels, but then again, that just doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  It seems more likely that when he goes forward he actually sleeps through it every time, and that when he goes back that time is actually reversed up to the point at which he pulls the sword from the pedastle.

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It's very easy, when Link travels from the future to the past, does he keep his adult body? If I am right, no, se he travels consciously.

About time travel, well here's an article I wrote for another site, I hope you like it, it's "my newest version."

This article is dedicated to explain the different inconsistencies of time travel in Ocarina of Time (OoT for short) and Majora's Mask (MM for short.) First, I'll explain how I believe the time travel to work in OoT, then, I'll review the entire game. Each time there is a problem with time travel or anything concerning it, I'll do my best to explain it. After I finish with OoT, I'll do the same with Majora's Mask. This article will explain them without the need of multiple timelines. I did it the less confusing way I could. I’m working in a multiple timeline theory too. Personally, I like more single timeline theories, but it seems like both of them work. I hope you enjoy reading it as I did writing it.

Ocarina of Time:
In my opinion, time travel in OoT is very simple, first of all, I would like to point that Link travels exactly seven years back and forth. For example, if Link is in the past, at 3.33 pm, then travels to the future, when he arrives there, it will be 3.33 pm, exactly seven years later.

Now, I would like to mention that Link travels consciously (in mind.)

And, finally, I would like to point that the objects Link gets in the past, travel with him to the future (by means of the Sacred Realm, when Link's mind gets to the future the objects he collected appear with him when he emerges from the Sacred Realm.) I'm pretty sure that the pieces of hearth weren't intended to appear in the 'real story,' anyway a good way to explain it is that, since the same object cannot be in the same place, at the same time, 'the past' pieces disappear when Link travels to the past with them.

Link already did all the things you see him doing when traveling to the past. What happens is that he's only remembering them. When Link travels from the future to the past (consciously,) he takes the control of his past body (which is sleeping in the Sacred Realm,) that's why we always see him emerging from the Sacred Realm when he puts the Master Sword in the future. While his future mind is using his past body, his past mind is sleeping in the Sacred Realm of the future. When he first awoke from the Sacred Realm he didn't remember what he did, because even though, technically, he already did it, he remembers doing it later.


Now, lets start reviewing the game. First of all, Link starts his quest defeating Queen Gohma and retrieving the Kokiri's Emerald. After this, he visits Zelda and recovers the Spiritual Stones, next he goes to the future by drawing the Master Sword and saves Saria, Darunia, and Ruto, until he gets to Kakariko Village, here is a great problem because of the Song of Storms, what I think that happened, is that (as I already stated,) Link has already played the song to Guru-Guru, what happened is that he didn’t remember it, so that’s why he had to learn it again. All what he did in the past concerning the well, is only him remembering it.

After defeating Bongo-Bongo and saving Impa, Link goes to the desert where he remembers (as he did with the Song of Storms,) the Requiem of Spirit. When he travels to the past, he only remembers how he got the Silver Gauntlets, and where he stored them, maybe this would sound like speculation, but if he doesn’t remember acquiring the Silver Gauntlets, probably he doesn’t know where he put them. After this, he defeats Ganon and talks with Zelda. Finally, we see Link in the Temple of Time in front of the Master Sword. I think that Zelda sent him to a period of time after he got the Silver Gauntlets (so in that way Link is not in two places at the same time.) Then, Zelda returned to the castle, Link somehow evaded the guards, and entered, then gave the Ocarina to Zelda and left some time, after this, he returned to the castle again, and went to Termina.


Majora’s Mask:
In this game, time travel works a little bit different from OoT, unwise its predecessor, Link travels back exactly to the point in which he started his quest, no matter at which time he plays the Ocarina, now, here the rule of “the same object cannot exist in two places at the same time” is very important, since it has to be applied to all the items for the game to be logical. I’m going to use it to explain a confusing point in the game. Let’s suppose that Link gets the bow, now, he plays the Ocarina and he travels back (consciously,) now, it is not possible for him to have the bow because it is still in the Woodfall Temple, because as we know, the past cannot be changed. So, I have developed a theory (which sounds a little like speculation,) to explain this without multiple timelines. I think that, when Link is using the bow, it disappears from the chest, and goes to Link’s hands, and, when Link is not using it, it returns to the chest, the same happens with all the things Link gets, about the rupees, they are ‘lost in time,’ as we see when Link plays the Ocarina.

Now, the past cannot be changed, so while Link is doing something, all what he will do is already happening, for example, when Link is in the Woodfall Temple, the things he will do are happening too in the Stone Tower Temple, this doesn’t mean that there are more than one Link, the things are simply happening, with no body doing it. Each time you see Link doing them, it’s because he is only remembering them. This happens, because in a certain period of time, he already did it, or he will do it. We can see a clear example of this in the Clock scene, to summon the Four Giants Link only has to play the Song without saving the Giants again. This happens because everything what he did is happening.